So today was a Double Church day. We went to check out The Meeting Place,and then went to our regular church. It was a pretty good morning, and I really enjoyed going to two services and two churches; especially such different churches.
The Meeting Place is a great, little church in downtown Winnipeg. Well, not so little as it apparently has 2000 regular attenders, but it doesn't have the same attitude that seem to go hand-in-hand with larger churches. A lot of these big churches have these fancy-ass new buildings so that when you walk in you can't tell it if is a mall or a church.
The Meeting Place is a downtown church, and they seem to get a fair number of homeless and transient people, but the majority of the congregation seem to be folks driving in from outside of downtown.
When you walk into The Meeting Place, it feels comfortable. We didn't have anyone really talk to us, but then I don't think we give off the attitude that we want people to come up and talk to us. They have 2 services on Sunday mornings, 9 and 11. We went to the first one, which was a good mix of young and old people. Most churches I've gone to tend to have a mostly older congregation at their first service, so it was nice to see a mix of young and old. I figure there was about 200 people at the first service, though I couldn't see how many people were on the balcony.
Things I noted:
- There is an ASL interpreter, and a deaf guy in the congregation was signing the worship during the singing.
- There is a band playing or rehearsing elsewhere in the building and it was a little distracting.
- The band is pretty tight, but the drummer plays off music paper, and has a habit of rushing. The worship leader plays guitar left-handed, but instead of restringing it, he just has it flipped over. It's pretty awesome.
- Their order of service is 3 songs, announcements/video/prayer, a song with offering, a sermon, then a sort of reflective song with just the band, then a final worship song and the benediction. (but it isn't a sitdown-following-the-benediction church, it's more of a leave-your-seats-right-away church.
- It is very much a Mennonite Brethren church at its base, but they have it all gussied up to look like an emergent church. They almost seem like they are trying to hard to be relevant. They use too many buzzwords for my liking, but they seem to get their message across, and have a growing, dynamic congregation. And any church that is bringing people closer to God and creating spiritual growth, and helping to foster a deeper relationship with Christ, I can't complain.
Today's message was interesting, they had the local director of Living Waters come and speak about Sexual Brokenness. Living Waters was originally introduced to me as a program that "fixes" homosexuals, but today I learned they do a whole lot more. They help people suffering from brokenness. They help people struggling with addiction, sexual abuse, homosexuality and the like. He gave a pretty cool sermon on brokenness, and he also subscribes to the vertical vs. horizontal relationship model which I liked.
All in all a great service with a good sermon and awesome music.
In response to selfrequiem's comments on "Christian vs. Christian's", I have written my thoughts on the post condemning World of Warcraft as evil. At the time I was just too pissed off and wouldn't have written anything of worth. I respect what she has written, I just wish it wasn't how people were introduced to the game, or that it is an all encompassing Christian view of the game.
You should write more about this... You say she represents the game incorrectly, but what about her "biblical" evaluation of it? Is there anything wrong with her "Christian" argument? You say it is well researched, but you don't agree with it. Where does it fall apart?
What should she say? What about her criticism bothers you exactly (other than an incorrect depiction of the game itself)? What would make her argument more "Christian?"
I think you should get more technical and explicit with your criticism. I want to hear what the twisted christian thinks.
Alright, the problems I have with her criticism and a Christian's view of WoW...
So she uses these "red-flag" icons as bullets for her various points. It doesn't necessarily mean what she mentions is a "red flag" issue, and that's my first problem with her article, it is misleading and immediately indicates that everything about the game raises red flags.
Her post starts off with a bit of a summary of the game. It states the facts plainly, though with a strong negative overtone. And then it goes into "A Christian View." (which, if you've read my previous post, you'll understand I'd rather it was "A Christian's View." It is a well done summary of the game, she goes over the main premise of the game and gives the reader enough of an understanding to know what the game is if brought up in conversation, but hardly scratched the surface of what the game really is.
So this "Christian View" starts off with quoting Galatians 5:20-21 saying, "Those who practice witchcraft (sorcery) will not inherit the kingdom of God...These practices are anti-God and are in rebellion against Him."
Now my first problem is that this verse is of the old covenant, so it can't be used to condemn someone as we are all saved by the blood of Christ. My chief complaint is that she is comparing practicing witchcraft to pressing buttons to cast a spell; there is no comparison. What the bible verse is talking about is the practicing of witchcraft, the mindset and beliefs, not sitting at home on a computer mashing keys.
She proactively attempts to counter my previous argument with the following, "Adultery is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice adultery (virtual sex)? Homosexuality is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice homosexuality (virtual sex)? Murder is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice murder (video games)?"
This idea comes from Matthew 5:27-30, where Jesus is talking about how lustfully looking at a woman is the same as committing the act of adultery; a story that can be applied to all sin. Fair enough, but again it comes down to the player's mindset. They aren't thinking about killing someone, they are thinking about killing this fictional monster, it is NOT the same thing. It is similar to reading a fantasy novel where the hero is slaying dragons or villains. Or a group of kids that get together to pretend that they are various heroes on an epic journey in a game of Dungeons and Dragons.
The next issue she brings up is the addictive nature of the game, and how "Anything we spend time doing to the point of putting aside Bible study and prayer should be a signal to us that there is a problem."
I will not refute the point that the game is addicting, I have experienced that myself, but it is only a problem if you allow it to control your life, something that is entirely dependent on the individual. Some people can sit down and play for a couple of hours and get up and do other things, there is nothing wrong with this. Others will sit down and play for hours on end, neglecting to eat, sleep, or take care of themselves, this is a problem. If it a player isn't able to control the amount of time they play the game, then they must make the choice to stop. The fact that it is addicting to some people does not make it a problem for everyone. There are a number of other MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role playing games) that are apparently just as addictive, but when I played them I didn't find them to be addictive in the least.
She also goes on to say that we need to be careful of our thoughts as they control our lives and to, "to press toward the goal, to live a life that would honor God and kept his focus on eternity, not the things that this earth can give." This is all well and good, and something we should strive towards, but it isn't something that is going to, nor should it have to, fill our every thought all day long. You may as well say we should think on nothing but God, and our relationship with Him, and how we should tell others about him and so on. A great idea in theory, but it isn't going to happen. While we should strive to be like Him, we are still human and will never attain that level. We should live our lives the best we can, but understand that we are still human.
She concludes with words of advice on "How do we set the captives free?" And what are her words? To turn to Jesus of course, because, "God can set the captives free, once a captive turns their eyes toward Jesus. The way back from any captivity is first acknowledging that one is a captive and seeking God." What great words of advice, and she even includes some relevant Bible verses, all which would be great if you were talking about something that makes people captive and takes them away from God. She says, "World of Warcraft is one of the many tools used to captivate and desensitize many concerning the Occult and divination." I don't understand how she is coming to this conclusion. It is a game and it isn't desensitizing people to the Occult and divination. It is a game that has magic use in it. A game where you mash buttons to make fire or ice or whatever come from your character to kill something. There is nothing occultish about it.
For me, MMORPG's started out as a game, but quickly turned into an escape. An escape from this world, from my worries and my cares. When I was running around as one of the many toons I had, I didn't have a care in the world (other than the in-game ones). I gave me some time to leave the cares of this world behind, and immerse myself in this fun little world. It is a high-tech version of what I used to do as a kid when I'd immerse myself in books for hours on end. If you are condemning games like WoW, or Everquest or any of the other MMORPG's, then you may as well condemn all fantasy books and games like Dungeons and Dragons (which unfortunately a great many do as you can read from the comments on her post, and that makes me even more sad than her post on WoW does). The game never took me away from God though, for as God is in the world around me, He is also in the game. He is brought in through other players, and through the designers themselves. There is religion in the game, and it is quite easy to see a Christian influence in various aspects of it.
She received over 100 responses to her post, with a good mix coming from both sides, though I was appalled by the number of people writing and saying this was the first they'd heard of the game and were so glad to get a "Christian view" of the game. I think that is what pissed me off the most when I first read it. It was that she was plying it off as though this is what all Christian's should think of the game. What I have written above are my views as a Christian on the game, as well as a former player of the game.
I follow @heartofworship (the author of the post I'm writing about) on twitter, along with a number of other people who's views I don't always agree with. I believe by reading what other people are talking about, and attacking, and defending, then I can learn how to respond, and what needs responding to. I can learn about all of the things that people have issue with when it comes to the Church and Christianity, and decide where I sit on the issue. How can I converse with someone about my faith if I don't know what people find wrong with it? I respect their opinions, I just don't share them. And if I think they are hurting the Christian reputation then I will take steps in my life to show people otherwise.
You should write more about this... You say she represents the game incorrectly, but what about her "biblical" evaluation of it? Is there anything wrong with her "Christian" argument? You say it is well researched, but you don't agree with it. Where does it fall apart?
What should she say? What about her criticism bothers you exactly (other than an incorrect depiction of the game itself)? What would make her argument more "Christian?"
I think you should get more technical and explicit with your criticism. I want to hear what the twisted christian thinks.
Alright, the problems I have with her criticism and a Christian's view of WoW...
So she uses these "red-flag" icons as bullets for her various points. It doesn't necessarily mean what she mentions is a "red flag" issue, and that's my first problem with her article, it is misleading and immediately indicates that everything about the game raises red flags.
Her post starts off with a bit of a summary of the game. It states the facts plainly, though with a strong negative overtone. And then it goes into "A Christian View." (which, if you've read my previous post, you'll understand I'd rather it was "A Christian's View." It is a well done summary of the game, she goes over the main premise of the game and gives the reader enough of an understanding to know what the game is if brought up in conversation, but hardly scratched the surface of what the game really is.
So this "Christian View" starts off with quoting Galatians 5:20-21 saying, "Those who practice witchcraft (sorcery) will not inherit the kingdom of God...These practices are anti-God and are in rebellion against Him."
Now my first problem is that this verse is of the old covenant, so it can't be used to condemn someone as we are all saved by the blood of Christ. My chief complaint is that she is comparing practicing witchcraft to pressing buttons to cast a spell; there is no comparison. What the bible verse is talking about is the practicing of witchcraft, the mindset and beliefs, not sitting at home on a computer mashing keys.
She proactively attempts to counter my previous argument with the following, "Adultery is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice adultery (virtual sex)? Homosexuality is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice homosexuality (virtual sex)? Murder is a sin, is it OK to pretend to practice murder (video games)?"
This idea comes from Matthew 5:27-30, where Jesus is talking about how lustfully looking at a woman is the same as committing the act of adultery; a story that can be applied to all sin. Fair enough, but again it comes down to the player's mindset. They aren't thinking about killing someone, they are thinking about killing this fictional monster, it is NOT the same thing. It is similar to reading a fantasy novel where the hero is slaying dragons or villains. Or a group of kids that get together to pretend that they are various heroes on an epic journey in a game of Dungeons and Dragons.
The next issue she brings up is the addictive nature of the game, and how "Anything we spend time doing to the point of putting aside Bible study and prayer should be a signal to us that there is a problem."
I will not refute the point that the game is addicting, I have experienced that myself, but it is only a problem if you allow it to control your life, something that is entirely dependent on the individual. Some people can sit down and play for a couple of hours and get up and do other things, there is nothing wrong with this. Others will sit down and play for hours on end, neglecting to eat, sleep, or take care of themselves, this is a problem. If it a player isn't able to control the amount of time they play the game, then they must make the choice to stop. The fact that it is addicting to some people does not make it a problem for everyone. There are a number of other MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role playing games) that are apparently just as addictive, but when I played them I didn't find them to be addictive in the least.
She also goes on to say that we need to be careful of our thoughts as they control our lives and to, "to press toward the goal, to live a life that would honor God and kept his focus on eternity, not the things that this earth can give." This is all well and good, and something we should strive towards, but it isn't something that is going to, nor should it have to, fill our every thought all day long. You may as well say we should think on nothing but God, and our relationship with Him, and how we should tell others about him and so on. A great idea in theory, but it isn't going to happen. While we should strive to be like Him, we are still human and will never attain that level. We should live our lives the best we can, but understand that we are still human.
She concludes with words of advice on "How do we set the captives free?" And what are her words? To turn to Jesus of course, because, "God can set the captives free, once a captive turns their eyes toward Jesus. The way back from any captivity is first acknowledging that one is a captive and seeking God." What great words of advice, and she even includes some relevant Bible verses, all which would be great if you were talking about something that makes people captive and takes them away from God. She says, "World of Warcraft is one of the many tools used to captivate and desensitize many concerning the Occult and divination." I don't understand how she is coming to this conclusion. It is a game and it isn't desensitizing people to the Occult and divination. It is a game that has magic use in it. A game where you mash buttons to make fire or ice or whatever come from your character to kill something. There is nothing occultish about it.
For me, MMORPG's started out as a game, but quickly turned into an escape. An escape from this world, from my worries and my cares. When I was running around as one of the many toons I had, I didn't have a care in the world (other than the in-game ones). I gave me some time to leave the cares of this world behind, and immerse myself in this fun little world. It is a high-tech version of what I used to do as a kid when I'd immerse myself in books for hours on end. If you are condemning games like WoW, or Everquest or any of the other MMORPG's, then you may as well condemn all fantasy books and games like Dungeons and Dragons (which unfortunately a great many do as you can read from the comments on her post, and that makes me even more sad than her post on WoW does). The game never took me away from God though, for as God is in the world around me, He is also in the game. He is brought in through other players, and through the designers themselves. There is religion in the game, and it is quite easy to see a Christian influence in various aspects of it.
She received over 100 responses to her post, with a good mix coming from both sides, though I was appalled by the number of people writing and saying this was the first they'd heard of the game and were so glad to get a "Christian view" of the game. I think that is what pissed me off the most when I first read it. It was that she was plying it off as though this is what all Christian's should think of the game. What I have written above are my views as a Christian on the game, as well as a former player of the game.
I follow @heartofworship (the author of the post I'm writing about) on twitter, along with a number of other people who's views I don't always agree with. I believe by reading what other people are talking about, and attacking, and defending, then I can learn how to respond, and what needs responding to. I can learn about all of the things that people have issue with when it comes to the Church and Christianity, and decide where I sit on the issue. How can I converse with someone about my faith if I don't know what people find wrong with it? I respect their opinions, I just don't share them. And if I think they are hurting the Christian reputation then I will take steps in my life to show people otherwise.
I came across this while I was surfing the internet (but have no idea where it was, as I forgot to grab the site address), and thought it was something interesting to think about. I'm a big fan of thought experiments, and enjoyed this one.
If there is a God, or a Universal Energy, and that energy is everywhere in everything, then everything about YOU must be made up of that. If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, then everything that you are is God and as such those qualities are inherent in you. If everything that you are is GOD, then what you are must be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Thought experiments are fun if you take the time to actually think about it. Most are very easy to just dismiss outright or agree with, but that defeats the purpose. The idea is to think outside of the box, to explore all the different possibilities and options.
How do you think this example goes along with, or against, a Christian line of thought?
If there is a God, or a Universal Energy, and that energy is everywhere in everything, then everything about YOU must be made up of that. If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, then everything that you are is God and as such those qualities are inherent in you. If everything that you are is GOD, then what you are must be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Thought experiments are fun if you take the time to actually think about it. Most are very easy to just dismiss outright or agree with, but that defeats the purpose. The idea is to think outside of the box, to explore all the different possibilities and options.
How do you think this example goes along with, or against, a Christian line of thought?
One letter and a punctuation mark can make all the difference when saying something.
What I am talking about is the difference between "A Christian View" and "A Christian's view." There is a huge difference between the two, and I am hoping the latter will become more prevalent.
What got me thinking about this is "A Christian View of World of Warcraft" which should be A Christian's View of the World of Warcraft. It is a very well researched, which I appreciate, though I do not agree with it, therefore it is not "A Christian View" but rather "A Christian's View".
I do not agree with what she has to say on the subject, and think she is wrong in a number of her statements. If she wants to think that games like WoW are evil for her various reasons, then that is fine. What bothers me is the number of people that are reading her post and it is their initial introduction to the game. It is a poor representation of what the game is like, and what a 'Christian' view is on the subject.
What I am talking about is the difference between "A Christian View" and "A Christian's view." There is a huge difference between the two, and I am hoping the latter will become more prevalent.
What got me thinking about this is "A Christian View of World of Warcraft" which should be A Christian's View of the World of Warcraft. It is a very well researched, which I appreciate, though I do not agree with it, therefore it is not "A Christian View" but rather "A Christian's View".
I do not agree with what she has to say on the subject, and think she is wrong in a number of her statements. If she wants to think that games like WoW are evil for her various reasons, then that is fine. What bothers me is the number of people that are reading her post and it is their initial introduction to the game. It is a poor representation of what the game is like, and what a 'Christian' view is on the subject.
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